IN CONVERSATION WITH CHARLIE BRITTAIN.
Cove Park, Day 5
It’s my last day collaborating with Charlie. Tomorrow it will just be me reflecting, revisiting and pulling all that has transpired this week together. To help me with this lonely and scary task, we’ve had a real bumper day of discussions and movement development. Now dusk is on the horizon as we hear a buzz of activity in the main building. The Cove Park team has arranged for a ‘celebrity’ chef to cook a Mexican meal for all of us residents and some outside guests. Before that happens we both take a moment to chat and look back over the week. Here’s my notes of what we talked about.
Charlie, it’s our final wrap-up discussion, and from my perspective, what a totally amazing residency we’ve had here in our creative cocoon at Cove Park.
I can honestly say this week has surpassed all my expectations. At times it’s caught me off guard as to how fruitful this, our first collaboration together, has been for me creatively and personally.
I wonder for those who are reading if we should turn back the clock. As a successful artist in your own right and with a busy schedule of your own, why did you want to collaborate with me in such an intensive way?
I knew that you had a lot of integrity in your work. So there was something there that I wanted to explore before the offer came up. I was at a point in my life where I felt like I didn't want to say yes to things I couldn't fully commit to. I had done it in the past but felt like I had never really landed in them.
It came at a time when I was really interested in growth. So the idea of working with you with a view to exploring what you've got, but also looking at how that might grow, I think felt really good. It's one of the first times when I felt like I've been able to bring my skill set as a whole person, the health side, the health therapy side and the artistic side, in one meaningful way.
And residencies I know I do well in them. I really like being immersed and I only say yes to them when I think it's going to go well personally because it's a very intense way to work. And, I think if it's the wrong combination of people, it can be quite suffocating, and if it's the right combination of people, it can be amazingly immersive and fruitful.
And I can say now, at the end of the week that it's definitely been that for me.
To give people context we’ve performed together once before very early on in your career but this is the first time we’ve really collaborated on a project.
This week is part of my Arts Council England funding to develop my creative practice. I wanted this to be more than simply being taught stuff. I’ve looked to fully collaborate with other experts/artists and their different skill sets. How was the lead-in for this project from your perspective?
I felt like you had so much authenticity and transparency and going, this is what it is, if you don't want it, no problem.
I didn't feel any pressure, but then when I made the decision I do want to, that was totally for me. So we’re in a place we both want to be, which I think is different than one person really driving and the other person going, okay, fine, why not? It wasn't ‘why not’ for me, it was a really active choice and I think the active choice was because you left the door open but didn't try and drag me through it.
Thank you, Charlie, that makes me very pleased. Participation is a key part of my practice and I try my utmost to facilitate genuine collaboration. It’s still a learning journey but hopefully, I’m far better than I used to be.
I do have one regret.
I wish I’d been able to share with you my enquiry topic - looking at my sexuality of being a gay man - way sooner. For me, it came too late in the day and that was because I’d spent so much time being resistant to going to such a personal place. I have to thank those who came before you in this process for helping me take a risk. Yes, there was a plan ‘B’ if we’d found that an uncomfortable place to visit but thankfully you’ve been really honest and open in our discussions.
That's really interesting you say that. Thanks for sharing that.
If I'm completely honest, it didn't trigger me. It crossed my mind whether it was a choice to arrive without an idea of the topic and it happening in the moment. I wondered if it was a respectful thing of ‘I don't want to do loads of distance lead-in’. I guess because you've been so transparent the whole time I trusted that you would have had an awareness that it was quite a big thing to bring to the room.
So knowing that you were aware of that, it didn't feel that you played me, it didn't feel that you had no idea how big it was. Actually, I trusted you, and I trust your integrity enough to know that there's no agenda with this apart from it being the moment for it. But I also agree that, if it wasn't me, that might have been a big deal. But then you had a Plan B, you thought about it and you recognised it. So for me, that's integrity. But I appreciate your perspective on it, definitely. And I also think that it's an interesting reflection on how vulnerable you feel around it to assume someone else will be.
We’ve been very fluid with how we’ve structured our time and I feel that has been mutually beneficial.
Something that I’ve noticed within your practice Charlie is your natural ability to cultivate a safe and being-seen space.
This relaxed safe intensity has allowed me to flourish. I’ve been able to express truly what I've been thinking, warts and all, and pushed into the grey areas that feel sensitive and personal knowing you’re with me on this journey. Feeling safe has made it creatively so rewarding.
I just got shivers.
Thank you for saying that. I mean, all the conversations you've been having about my practice over the week, my absolute one wish is to be in a room where people feel seen and safe and safe in every way. So I'm not trying to push people into their vulnerabilities. But I would like to feel that if they want to go there, they trust that they can go there in a held way. So that really means a lot to me, John.
I have to say also that I think it's really important to recognise that it's a two-way street and you have let me hold you. I've not once felt that you've judged me or had any prejudice that I'm young, you've taken me for the integrity of my practice and what I brought to the room. I've never censored myself, in case you think I'm too big for my boots, or in case you thought who's a 25-year-old to say that. And again, as much as that's about me being vulnerable with my own stuff, I've only been able to go into the vulnerability because I felt safe. You've given me a lot of respect and I really, really appreciate that.
I really thrive off people that are older than me. I don't necessarily even mean in age. Normally it is in age because that's the simplest denominator but people who have some kind of life experience behind them. I think that sometimes I feel a bit vulnerable, often being the youngest in the room.
It’s interesting you bring up age and experiences of prejudice because of it. I can see how that has affected both our dance careers. Your wealth of knowledge and I must say I find it impressive and inspiring how much you’ve achieved to date, could be devalued because of your age. In my journey I’ve had the opposing prejudice of my contribution being devalued because I came to professional dance too late, in their eyes, at the age of 38.
That is a really interesting link, actually, that's kind of a shared or a comparable experience from a different perspective. You're right. From different ends of the timeline.
Let’s take comfort that we know our voices are important and should be heard, and those we keep around us know that too.
Yes, that's been really special for me. The week has been great in that sense.
Throughout our week, verbal ping pong has been front and centre, deep diving into any and all manner of questions. I loved it.
You're someone that thrives off the questions and does not always have the answers. And when you do have the answers, I trust that there's integrity to it because I know that you wouldn't say unless there was and that's allowed me to not worry about it.
I think it comes down to the space you cultivate and there's something about your willingness to own the not knowing which I find really inspiring and also gives me a real sense of honesty.
How else has it been this week Charlie?
It's been intense, but I don't say that with a negative edge.
I think it's been beautifully intense. It hasn't felt too much. It hasn't felt overwhelming, just intense, which is kind of what I wanted, and I think what you wanted. Also what the work needed, so that felt really good. I felt a lot of sensitivity from you, often nonverbally, sensitivity to the work, sensitivity to yourself and sensitivity to me.
Your ongoing rehab due to injury meant adapting our time at the beginning. But now my concerns about following a structure I thought was expected of me seem undue and I know to get the best out of people you have to care for their needs before your own. Could we even say it ended up being a good thing, rather than a hindrance for us?
When I'm reflecting on it, I think part of that motivation to be up early and in the room doing it so it didn't eat loads of time was probably because there wasn't pressure for me to have it done by a certain moment, which meant that I really wanted to do it, if that makes sense. It's still very charged for me. I felt like you took that pressure away so early on, even when I texted you and said, I'm just letting you know here's where I'm at at the moment. Even that was big for me because I just went, I can really be involved in that process because I don't have to have all those constant fears of not wanting it to affect the process.
And also I wonder how fruitful our conversations around your practice would have been if I hadn't been in a moment where I was deep diving so much into my own. Because I approached our conversation about body maintenance and all those things from a professional perspective of dealing with clients and helping people for the last few years. But also from a point of view of going, I'm really living this experience right now.
One of my worries when in the studio is all this deep thinking doesn’t transpose itself into dance vocabulary. And, then sadly we then fall into a trap of making movement for movement’s sake.
Yeah, I can appreciate that.
But, I think one of the special things for me is we haven't done that. And, I think that wasn’t by chance if I'm honest. I think that it was the relationship and the flow we found by driving each other, but also giving space to each other. I think that was the right balance and I think that it was fruitful because of that, because it could be so easy to go, oh, wasn't it great? I think we should not over analyse, but I think we should take stock of what it was that put us in a place of flow.
I know we have shared a lot on this journey together.
And I don’t feel either of us has held back on saying what we think.
I wonder as this is our last talk for a while if there were any final observations you’d like to share? Any key stand-out takeaways that maybe we haven’t delved into, or as Lou Cope would say, areas to keep ‘pushing’?
I would say that there's one thing that I have really noticed is a kind of vulnerability. I felt your vulnerability around the topic and a little bit around your practice at moments.
And what I've loved about that, and I see it as a real positive, is your willingness to go there.
I've felt that there have been moments where you could easily have retreated from the topic or from wanting to explore that area. And what I've really respected is you going like, oh, I do feel vulnerable, but I'm going to go into that. And I think there's a really fine line there because what I'm not saying is that you've been self-absorbed. I haven't felt that you've been damaging yourself. I felt like you've been really sensitive and you've acknowledged it. I felt I've witnessed that vulnerability, but a sort of courage in going into it. But I've never felt like you've compromised me or you for it.
There might be some time to be spent on questioning what the vulnerability is and unpicking it and seeing if you're better resourced than your internal voice thinks you are. Yeah, because when I look at you, I see this incredibly robust maker that is self-reflective, analytical, talented, committed, driven, honest and humble. I see so much value that sometimes you just want to take people and shake them and go like I don't think you're realising that.
Do you think that's been amplified because I've been going to a personal place instead of my usual subject matters?
I would say that my perception is probably, yes, definitely.
And again, for me, that's a real perspective, because I think you've navigated that really perfectly, very adeptly, like that balance between not pushing into a place of vulnerability where you have compromised the process, or me or you, but also going there when it's really uncomfortable.
That was one of the takeaways that I would love if that thread of self-ownership or kind of self-reflection continues beyond the week or even beyond the process because it feels really close to you and who you are, which has been a real privilege, I think for me, that you feel trusting enough to go there.
So the big question. And there is no pressure to answer this. I’d love for us to collaborate beyond this DYCP. As we’ve talked about in the week, long-term creative partnerships are where my best work is fostered. So would you like that? And how can we?
I think what I would love, what would really excite me about this relationship, would be to maintain the wholeness of it from my point of view, the moment that I felt so seen. I’m at a phase where I would rather work with fewer people, but the right people long term, and I think you're one of them.
I can see our relationship spanning lots of different things. I can see a performance element, but I can also see an element of going, well, can we share this work? I could totally imagine teaching with you and for you. I could totally imagine dancing with you and for you. I could totally imagine co authoring work or workshops together. I can also see coming in to support you in other projects. I could imagine myself getting on the phone and going John, can I have you for a day? I'm working on these other projects, but I could really use your eyes or your thoughts.
As I say, it's hard to answer what that looks like practically, because I can imagine lots of options. There's no emotional, personal, or professional barrier for me at all. The only thing I can imagine being a yes or a no is whether I am physically available. Which is really exciting.
Charlie, that has been really informative. A heartfelt thank you for your generosity this week. I’ve only one thing left to say… welcome to team NOCTURN.
I get the feeling with you, I feel like if we debrief for a week, we’ll still have stuff to say.